I: Psionics is the pseudo-scientific study of paranormal phenomena. With the advent of ‘meme magic’ and the new political landscape we find ourselves in, some people have even considered whether we are living in an alternate reality. The post-truth world in which we now inhabit and the increasing complexities brought on by disruptive technologies can certainly start to feel weird and unreal, is this something that interests you?

Bo: I do feel the world we live in is weird and unreal and I am deeply interested in the strange memetic dark corners of 4chan and reddit and concerned about all the horrifying, depressing political and social events but I don’t see humanity capable of figuring out any of the big philosophical questions quite yet. Rather I think all this weirdness, violence and stupidity are signs of a boiling point in the ongoing human evolution, maybe the beginning of that certain transformation that would turn us into post-humans in the end.

Swedish philosopher Nick Bostrom’s Simulation Argument has been an inspiration for me conceptually ever since I first came across it about five years ago. I find the concept of alternate realities close to Bostrom’s argument in some ways. But I don’t think if we were living in some kind of post-human made ancestral simulation and it is actually the year 42069 there would be any way of waking up from it. The complexity of the simulation would overrule any kind of digital resistance.

Be: I consider myself moderately tech savvy, but I still can’t fully understand the inner workings of online communication. Even though it's not as mystical as it used to be, internet is still magical to me because of that. That's why I think Psionic as a brand name works on two different levels, it sounds like a Blade Runner-esque, distant-future corporation, also a techno-occult practice, possibly a spiritual outlet for the disenfranchised youth of tomorrow, however sad it might sound. So yes, thinking about the unknown and the incomprehensible rifts in technology had a significant influence on us in the show.

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I: One of the paintings in the show features Pepe the Frog, which many people now consider to be a hate symbol. As I'm aware that the painting itself was done back in 2016 when not everyone was initially aware of the change in Pepe's status, and especially for people who were previously attached to the meme beforehand, it can perhaps be difficult to gage the perspectives of people who might see it differently. So in light of recent controversies over the use of Pepe and the politics that are now so often attached to him, can you shed some light on your perspective on this and the use of the meme in this context and how they relate to the ideas in your show?

Bo: I had no initial conceptual reason for using Pepe specifically for that painting other than my general interest in memes and in their aesthetics. The first idea was to build a vague narrative using a clipart character of a cigarette running around happily on a street full of cigarette butts. Also I had found a tiny cartoon-like figure of a snowman at my parent’s flat around the same time and it got me thinking that the clipart cigarette running around cigarette butts and a snowman walking on that same street on a sunny day would work creating an absurd composition. At some point I needed a third character doing something behind a curtain or a wall for the top left side of the painting. I was going through a folder of rare Pepe images and I remember seeing one with cum on its face. I found its expression interestingly vacant, I wasn’t sure if it was proud or ashamed by it, enjoying it or hating it.. It was a triggering kind of image but not in favor of a certain statement. And I find it silly that Pepe the Frog is considered to be a hate symbol mainly because before all this sensitivity Pepe or Wojak/That Feel Guy or Trollface were just memes satirically reflecting certain feelings and aesthetics. Sometimes they were really dark feelings and bleak aesthetics and sometimes they were funny and superficial and some were motivating and sometimes they were deeply philosophical. But they did not serve any one ideology or had a singular identity. That always made me think that the frog (blank Pepe) was like a mirror where you could project whatever ideology, identity or image you wanted. I think what I’m trying to say is that I understand it could be very irritating when a certain meme is used by a hate group and it becomes their contemporary political propaganda tool but I don’t think labelling the character/meme as a “hate symbol“ resolves anything. On the contrary this kind of mentality complicates the issue, dragging it away from any potential solution.

Be: I first became aware of the fascist (or the so-called alt-right) connotations of Pepe the Frog after the Richard Spencer punching video. I didn't know it was being used as a hate symbol to be honest. That's my illiteracy in meme culture, but I'm sure there were a lot of people who had no idea what that poorly drawn anthropomorphic frog implicates. That doesn't change anything though. It's nothing new. Disgusting ideologies have been attached to certain symbols, and used dangerously throughout human history. However, what else is also dangerous is to build a barrier, forbidding art from questioning, dismantling, mocking or discussing the ways in which the image of Pepe and the like operate.

When an artwork functions only as propaganda, it's not interesting to me. I find it hard to engage with it beyond the surface. In the case of Bora's painting I see Pepe as the comic relief and in the light of current political context of things, it gains new meaning, to me it becomes a disarming image. The "white man" is headless, without a name, and the ejaculation cheapens the toxic ideas Pepe has come to represent. That to me is how you properly piss off straight, white-nationalist Nazi scum. In the broader context of the show, it reveals how fragile the politics of internet culture are. How quickly an image with no real intellectual weight can transform into a hate symbol.